After the enthusiastic response to last weeks Anti-Calvinism propaganda posters, TBNN is proud to present our own version of Pro-Reformation posters. Please feel free to post these on your website or anywhere you like. We only ask that you keep our web address on there.
Translation: "You, guard against Arminianism!"
26 comments:
Awesome!
One wonders just how far people will take "sola Scriptura" For example, the Bible is clear on the order of regeneration and belief, yet some Calvinist fall back on authurs such as Pink, Piper, Calvin etc to override what Scripture so plainly and clearly states. Who has the final word? Funny enough, I wrote a blog on this yesterday.
Jerry,
Please stay on topic! Where in this post did I mention Sola Scriptura and the Ordo Salutis?
-Tom
First poster. Lady with paper. First line.
I was looking at the posters from the other day and saw all the commenting on what was written on them. I thought since TBNN allowed comments on the posters then, perhaps they would now.
Okay,
First of all the title of the post is "Pro-Reformation" posters. So unless you're Roman Catholic, Orthodox or one of a number of other groups not from Protestantism (and don't say Baptist), then you have a reformational heritage, even if you're not a Calvinist.
Secondly, the statement says "Sola Scriptura." Do you have a problem with that statement? If so, then that would be an appropriate issue to take up here.
Thirdly, where in the world do you see anything about the Ordo Salutis in this post? Please show me.
Your accusation provided no context. You just suddenly came out with some statement about Calvinist seeming to twist the idea of Sola Scriptura by deferring to Pink, Piper, Calvin, etc. You gave no example, no evidence, no reference point, etc.
So please, if you insist on talking about this give me some specifics. Quote me some Piper and then show me the verse that teaches otherwise.
-Tom
Tom, these are classic.
Are you still going to do "Serious Sundays"?
Darrin,
Sigh, I'd love to, but life is just too busy right now. I need Sunday to be a day of rest. While I think the "serious" stuff would be in keeping with the Lord's day, I also just need a break from blogging.
I have some people I'm talking to about joining the blog, so perhaps one of them would like to come up with something.
-Tom
I am not going to split hairs about my posted commments. I will stay on topic next time. But lets be honest- If I were a Calvinist and I wrote, "Sola Scritpura, what a lovely concept. I know of Arminians that need to live by that motto. They believe you can lose your salvation!!" I am sure you would not be so quick to point out I brought up a topic that was not mentioned. I understand this is your blog and you have the right to moderate the way you see fit. However, it seems that the "staying on topic" is reserved for non-Calvinist.
As for Piper, here it is- "We do not think that faith precedes and causes new birth. Faith is the evidence that God has begotten us anew." page 11 of his position paper of the pastoral staff. The Bible always places faith before belief, not the other way around. I will go now and stay on topic next time.
Hmm. I was waiting for the part where you explain how a corpse can bring itself to life...in order to choose life.
Maybe next time.
As long as TBNN deems this to be on topic, this will be the last I say about this- Maybe next time I could get the verse that clearly says man must be regenerated before he can believe the gospel. I have Scripture, you have humanistic reasoning. Who trumps whom?
Jerry,
You still failed to point out a verse that contradicts what Piper said.
Besides, the way in which you're applying the idea of Sola Scriptura to this argument is not accurate. The reformed idea of Sola Scriptura is that "Scripture alone is our only rule of faith and practice." This is in contrast to the Roman Catholic view that states that "Both Scripture and the tradition of the church are equal in dictating the practices of the faith." So your accusation against Calvinists not believing in Sola Scriptura is unfounded in the first place.
I have never said nore will I ever say that Arminians don't believe in Sola Scriptura. Nor would I let it go if someone else did here. The issue is interpretation of Scripture and whether proper hermeneutics of Scripture results in a view that is Scriptural. Reformed views are based on Scripture. Go back and read Piper. I'm sure he never said "Well, we in the reformed camp know the Bible says this, but we're going to go by tradition and believe this anyway."
As Richard already stated, the belief that regeneration precedes faith comes from the natural logical conclusion that one who is spiritually dead can do nothing until he has been made spiritually alive through regeneration. (Eph 2:1 & Rom 8:29-30). So our view is based upon Scripture, you just don't care for the interpretation.
What you're doing is called attacking a straw man. You are attacking an inaccurate view.
It is here I agree with Spurgeon- If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate.Am I only to preach faith to those who have it? Absurd indeed! Spurgeon " The Warrent of Faith"
Jerry,
Great quote. But I'm still waiting for you to back up what you stated earlier with Scripture. You implied that Calvinists do not truly adhere to Sola Scriptura because we follow some kind of reformed tradition in regards to regeneration and faith, stating that we rather run to "Pink, Piper and Calvin" for our understanding.
Now, you have in essence done the very same thing. Instead of going to Scripture, you've gone to Spurgeon. So can I assume you too do not practically believe in Sola Scriptura?
"and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate"
Remember, God ordains not only who will be saved, but the MEANS He will use to bring about faith in each elect individual. This concept of the means was important to those who articulated the faith so well in the past. As one Puritan said, "the means must be neither trusted nor neglected". God in His sovereignty wonderfully works circumstances toward salvation to those He has chosen. And often we have the privilege of being a part of His means by bringing the gospel to others He has foreordained.
Jerry,
What Spurgeon said doesn't support your case in any way, really. All it says is that if you tell someone who is ALREADY regenerated that they must believe on Christ, then you are wasting your time ... for that is what regeneration IS.
That quote, ironically, SUPPORTS the view that regeneration precedes faith.
If you are waiting for the verse that says "regeneration precedes faith" then you are missing the point. That phrase is inferred from the text. It is akin to the word "Trinity", which is also not in, but inferred from, the text.
However, I do have one verse for you:
For he who does evil [he who constantly lives a life of evil towards God, ie: an unregenerated man] hates the light and does not come to the light for fear that his deeds may be exposed.(John 3:20)
We know this verse does not speak of ALL who commit individual evil acts, for that would nullify 1 John 1:9 which tells us to confess our sins TO THE LIGHT and 1 John 2:1, which states that any CHRISTIANS who do an evil act have an Advocate with the Father. But how could they confess or be advocated if they cannot come to the Light?
Therefore, Jesus must be speaking of non-Christians (unregenerated individuals).
/off topic clarification. Sorry for that TBNN. :)
John- JOhn 3:20 does not say he cannot come to the light. It does not say he is unable to come to the light. It says he hates the light, and does not come to it. You must read into the verse that unregenerated man cannot come to the light. The fact remains that nowhere does the Bible say man cannot respond to the call of God.
I agree that the Trinity is inferred form the text. What is not inferred from the text is the belief that "regeneration precedes faith". The reason it is not inferred from the text is because there is no text for it to come out of. Is there one verse that states with clarity that belief? There are plenty that back up the Trinity. TBNN, this is my last post on this story. Thank you for your space and time.
Jerry, Jesus says it clearly in John 6:44, ff. "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— "
John 1:12, ff, "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born [become regenerated], not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
It is clearly God's choice, not ours. God must work first and those whom he regenerates always do come to him.
"If you are waiting for the verse that says "regeneration precedes faith" then you are missing the point."
I don't know, I John 5:1 says it pretty much as clearly as that:
"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God (perfect passive). There is no one who believes that Jesus is the Christ, who was not born of God (i.e. regenerated) prior to that belief. The action of the perfect-tense finite verb must precede the action of the present participle, by an irrefutable grammatical necessity. So John says it here as clearly as Greek grammar will allow (which is pretty darn clear...).
Pitchford
Yes, Jerry, God does not prevent men from coming to Him, if they are willing.
I don't know what that has to do with regeneration preceding faith, tho. Unregenerated men hate the light, and therefore WILL NOT come.
The Ordu Salutis doesn't speak on ability, only logical progression. The logical progression on FAITH is the unregenerated heart DOES NOT WANT to believe, because they love their sin. So it concludes that someone who is UNWILLING to come is also UNWILLING to believe. God MUST give that person a new heart (Ezek 36) and open the eyes of that individual so that they ARE willing.
Otherwise, they are left in their sin and will die in their sin, WILLFULLY RESISTING God. It is biblical, Jerry. Read in context.
Blessings
Good catch, Nathan
However, that verse does not contain the words "regeneration precedes faith", which, I believe, Jerry is awaiting.
Jerry,
I infer, and I believe rightly so, that one "dead in trespasses and sins" (Eph 2:1) cannot have faith in Christ unless he first be made alive. Dead is dead. It can do nothing. Thus a quickening must proceed a believing.
-Tom
Is that the original head on the guy in the third poster? It's kind of grayer.
Darrin,
You made me laugh this morning. Thanks for the random comment in the midst of such serious discussions. I love knowing what different people notice about things. :)
Have a great day.
Cristy
If I became a Calvinist would I have to argue with people all the time?
Jest wondering.
iggy
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