Topeka, Ks - Over the past decade the members of Westboro Baptist Church in Topeka under the leadership of the controversial and often inflammatory minister Fred Phelps have become notorious to say the least. Protesting the funerals of fallen U.S. soldiers, citing numerous public figures and entire nations as "irreversibly damned," and publishing materials that state things like "Thank God for 9-11" are but a few of the churches activities that have made them infamous. But recently a lesser-known group has emerged on the scene that appears to be even more controversial than Westboro Baptist Church has ever been. The church is known as Eastboro Baptist Church.On the surface Eastboro's theology seems almost identical to that of Westboro's. Both churches hold protests all over the country. Both focus heavily on God's hatred of sinners. Both rarely if ever mention Jesus Christ. And both believe they are the only church the world preaching the gospel. But there are some fundamental differences between the two churches as Eastboro's pastor, the Reverend Fred Whelps pointed out to TBNN.
"We're so fundamental we protest ourselves" said Whelps. "When we read the Bible we understand that God hates everyone and that no one is going to be saved at all since no one can perfectly obey God. Therefore everyone, including us, is going to hell and there's nothing anyone anywhere can do to stop it. This is the good news of the gospel."
Accordingly, Whelps has a very low view of the members of Westboro Baptist Church, citing some of the inconsistencies in their beliefs and practices.
"Fred is a pansy," stated Whelps. "He says that we are supposed to rejoice in everything God does. He holds up his signs that read 'Thank God for Dead Soldiers,' which we totally agree with, but then he gets on television and says of John Kennedy Jr. 'I hated to see the guy die.' What hypocrisy!"
Whelps believes that the only hope for people like Phelps and others is to realize that there is no hope and try to obey God as best they can.
"If people just try the best they can they'll still go to hell of course," said Whelps. "But perhaps in trying to do what's right they'll be spared from the deepest parts of hell which are the hottest."
17 comments:
Very funny! But how does their preaching "God hates you!" differ from the identical message of Mark Driscoll and even John Piper?
This is probably one of my favourite posts. :-D
Whelps believes that the only hope for people like Phelps and others is to realize that there is no hope and try to obey God as best they can.
Beautifully expressing the main fault of hyper-Calvinism...in the stated attempt to avoid legalism, they fall right into it again.
Peter I think you are trying to hijack the blog. Keep up your criticism of the historic Reformed position of God's anger against sinners at your blog. By the way, the difference between "Whelps"/Phelps and Piper/Driscoll is Piper/Driscoll believe God overcame the scandal of pardoning guilty sinners through the cross of Christ--it is a huge difference. I will not even bring up what I think of the famous "God hates the sin but loves the sinner" quote because we will never get this thread back again.
This was a funny post but sad at the same time because many in the world when they hear "Christian fundamentalist" think Fred Phelps.
Hi Peter. Perhaps they were preaching from Psalm 5:5?
"The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity."
I knew this would be a good one when there were 5 comments at 8:30 this morning. Poor new guy received 1 comment after 3 days. Sorry Bill.
Must God wait until we are saints before He loves us? Anyone? Have we not been workers of iniquity prior to salvation? Did God hate us before salvation?
Richard- Robert may object to your use of a OT passage as a proof text.
People, people, people, people, people...
Sigh...
Please get off the Calvinist/Arminian horse for one day. This post is primarily about a modern-day nut-case. We should all be able to agree on that!
-Tom
I agree that anyone who preaches that God hates you, at least without proper qualification, is a nutcase, and a blasphemous one.
Hi Tom. I apologize if I'm one to whom your comment was directed. I wasn't intending to broach the topic of soteriology. I merely wanted to point out how Psalm 5:5 teaches that God hates certain people.
Richard,
No, it wasn't directed at you at all. It began with Peter and Jerry. For crying out loud, if someone cannot see the difference between the Calvinism of Piper and Driscoll and the wacked-out lunacy of Phelps then I question his overall ability to tie his own shoes straight.
Here's Phelp's problem. There's no Jesus in his "gospel," there's no hope, no call for repentance, no grace etc, and therefore there's no gospel. Piper and Driscoll preach Christ. Enough said.
-Tom
Very amusing
I knew there was a reason I wear slip on shoes.
Why preach repentance? The elect have no choice, and the non-elect cannot.
As for hope- the non-elect have none.
Why preach grace? The elect will have it forced on them ( yeah yeah I know I worded it wrong, sue me) and the non-elect have none.
Don't try to pin this one on me, buddy. I spoke of the verse Richard brought up. I did not bring up the verse, which just so happens to be a proof text Calvinists cling too, not people like me.
haha! looks like someone else has stolen the name of eastboro baptist church. lol!
Great post as always!
Jerry,
Realize, there is no argument for your Arminian position that you can state that I haven't heard or answered before. As usual, you're attacking a straw man with all of your "if...then" logic, as if God telling us to do something isn't a good enough reason to do it.
Unless you or someone else has come up with an "Electometer" so that people can wave it over someone and determine whether or not they're elect, then we preach to all men without exception. WE DON'T KNOW WHO THE ELECT ARE! That's one of the major problems with Phelps, he thinks he does.
We preach because God commands it. We call men to repent because it is through those means God has chosen to bring about the supernatural work of salvation. That's how he works. So there's the answer to your question.
Now, the next person who drags a blasted Calvinism debate into a post that is not talking about Calvinism will be banned from commenting for two weeks.
-Tom
Can I make it clear that I made no mention of Calvinism in my comments. My point about "the identical message of Mark Driscoll and even John Piper" was purely that they too have preached the identical words "God hates you". The evidence is in the links I gave. It was others who took those words as referring to Calvinism. Well, if the cap fits ...
To be fair, Driscoll does suitably qualify his message (although Adrian Warnock didn't report the qualifications), and the Piper link is to a sermon from 1985 which, although currently on his website, may not fully reflect his current thinking. I realise of course that there are many ways in which Driscoll and Piper's teaching is very different from Phelps' and Whelps'. But my question about the difference was intended to make people think, and seems to have been successful in that.
Peter,
To be fair, you did not use the phrase "Calvinism" in your post. Can you deny though that there were intentional underlying implications? You specifically picked two well known pastors from the Reformed camp to make your point. Knowing your position, it's hard for me to believe that was unintentional.
-Tom
I just watched Star Wars, The Phantom Menace, last night where Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Jar-Jar (they sound like intergalactic rednecks) go through the planet core where a big fish tries to eat them and another bigger fish comes up and eats that fish. My first thought on "Whelps" was Qui-Gon's comment, "There's always a bigger fish" (or in this case, "kook").
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